Between those who understand the niche of anime and those who don’t, there lies a very big rift. But even for those who do, there seems to be still some misconceptions. One of the biggest ones I’ve observed is that watching romance anime is only for girls for the most part unless these are embedded in shounens like Bleach. Until then, they shouldn’t be watched by men. I don’t know if it’s only my misconception, but it seems that it isn’t, seeing that guys who do watch anime – not really addicted to them as I am, seem to prefer or are only proud of watching Bleach. When asked about ‘soft’ titles like Honey and Clover or worse, Koi Kaze, it’s either they pretend they haven’t heard of those titles (very plausible) or just pretend not to have watched these for the sake of their ‘manliness.’ This is what I don’t understand about a lot of guys. They are open to anime, but for the most part, they’re open to one of the weakest genres (IMO) only, shounen. It’s not that they’re still young boys and pre-teenagers, are they?
Granted, I do watch shounen. I was once a very avid fan of Bleach. But I didn’t stop there. Storywise, Koi Kaze kicks Bleach‘s ass hundredfold. I don’t have to wax lyrical about how I observed stuff (Faulknerian fragmentation … ) in the seinen Shingetsutan Tsukihime, because I already have. But to honestly limit what you watch simply because of what society tells you is real gayness. It’s a total retreat from being able to dare to watch beyond what you once did.
I can honestly say that I thought Bleach was among the greatest of all time, but reading suggestions thread and other threads about other anime slowly broadened my horizon about what anime should be, and what are great paragons of excellence when it comes to anime. But I didn’t pass judgment on those who watched ‘other’ shows (yes, Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu included). I even talk with people and are online friends with some who really love the show, I simply just hate fanboyism, though I’ve been one once and have only myself to blame (Ergo Proxy) and that’s why I hate reliving the experience. No, you haven’t seen me fanboy with Honey and Clover yet. Once is enough; I hated that time, but I’m simply full of praise for H&C.
I don’t know with shounen being related to manliness, but I’m pretty sure it’s very untrue. I must even state a point that true manliness lies when one can watch those romance shows without flinching, although it does sometimes gets to me (the philosophy of quite a few anime watchers), and I ask myself why I am watching shows I’m not supposed to watch because I’m a man. In the long run, however, it’s better: at the least, you get to know what girls think about and how they observe life in the perspective of shoujo and josei anime, and even though one may deny himself from being a ‘man,’ I can assure one that he’s better off that way. Quality anime often are either seinen or josei, and story quality of good shoujo often is greater than good shounen, perhaps because of the fact that shounen anime try to mulct as much money out of the franchise as possible, eventually denigrating the story quality whereas shoujo for the most part don’t do this and just tell as good a story as possible. That applies for good shoujo, of course. I think a lot would agree with me when I would say that Utena, despite not watching it, has a much more solid story than Bleach ever did, and digs deep with its characters that a lot of guys online are even touting it as their favorite of all time.
(For those who don’t understand shounen, shoujo, seinen, or josei, shounen is anime aimed for young boys and pre-teenagers, shoujo is aimed for young girls and pre-teenagers, seinen is anime aimed for young men and older men, and josei is anime aimed for young women and older women as well.)
July 16, 2006 at 9:56 pm
I’m guy who watches mostly shoujo and proud of that (you have probably noticed…). When I saw my first shoujo I had no idea my “manliness” was in danger and still don’t have. I hate action too. Does that make me Hazumu level girlish boy who talks to flowers? Probably so, but what’s wrong with anyway? It would be much worse if I would try pretend that I’m something else.
July 16, 2006 at 10:05 pm
I watch everything. But the weakest part of my repetoire is girly romance, but I still watch stuff like Bokura ga Ita, Alice Academy etc shoujo.
The real issue here is, people love to bitch about people liking stuff they don’t like. That’s all. It happens everywhere.
July 16, 2006 at 10:16 pm
It just gets to you sometimes. RL friends say, ‘you’re gay, aren’t you?’ that it pisses me off sometimes. 😐
July 16, 2006 at 10:59 pm
Gmm… well on opinion there are 3 points on which on need to refer when watch an anime –
1) the design and visual concept
2) the plot
3) in must be sometimes YOUR’s anime – resonate with your own. i believe yo all understand it well ))
if all goes + then you’ll enjoy it
if not ..well shit happens and you’ll turn it off
the girls romance on most of the cases suck for me on the visual part so i don’t really see them however
i do not consider H&C a “girls for anime”
and i say – it IS mega cool and really great thing to watch to )
so let’s enjoy it )!
July 17, 2006 at 12:37 am
Er, one of the big problems that I’ve had with these classifications is that everyone likes shounen and seinen stuff. The top manga magazine with male readers? Shounen Jump. The top manga magazine with female readers? Also Shounen Jump. What manga do females want turned into live-action shows? Yes, there are the Ouran High School Host Clubs and Honey and Clovers on the list, but they are right next to the Slam Dunks and the Silent Services and the Zipangs.
July 17, 2006 at 1:02 am
The guys often like it for the action and the girls for the bishounens. The problem is that I’m really ticked whenever people say that I’m gay (those who watch anime) because I like watching well-written romances. I mean, come on. Honey & Clover > Bleach in terms of story.
July 17, 2006 at 1:07 am
I think watching anime already puts ones manliness on thin ice anyway…
But anyhow, true manliness is not about being open to everything. True manliness is about wrestling bears, wearing eyepatches and acting tuff about anything every day of the week.
So in that sense shounen is a lot closer to manliness than shoujo.
True maturity, and being comfortable enough with your current state of manliness to try other things? That’s a different story though.
July 17, 2006 at 1:15 am
I somehow equate true manliness with maturity. That may be only me, though. Manliness does not come from without, it comes from within.
July 17, 2006 at 1:28 am
Shoujo is my thing. Romancy-dorama shows are what I watch most and look where I am now: in my parent’s basement all alone. Ok, I’m just joking about that last part… seriously.
Yeah, sometimes I get a bit self-conscious when I read that kind of stuff at Borders, but I still do every Friday anyways because I love doing it and it’s the activity I look forward to most every week. I had an internal battle whether to post about Shoujo Beat, but in the end I did and besides Randall, nothing bad really came out of it.
July 17, 2006 at 2:03 am
animeotaku: Does it piss you off that people call you gay because you’re insecure about your sexuality? Otherwise, just laugh it off.
I seriously didn’t consider Honey & Clover a shoujo anime. I guess anything that involves thought and not super saiyan + 1 mode is shoujo…
July 17, 2006 at 2:25 am
No, I just shrug it off for the most part. Anime isn’t really manly in the first place.
Honey and Clover isn’t shoujo, it is josei. I do, however, notice some shounen that aren’t bad at all and are a delight to watch, and these mostly are Adachi-works (80s vintage). But for the most part, shounen is your super saiyan (in different names and forms) + 1 (for the superhero) type of story.
July 17, 2006 at 4:25 am
[animeotaku: thanks for writing something that made me think so hard today LOL]
I agree on the notion that manliness, or womanliness for that matter, can equal maturity.
Shounen and Shoujo shows are prone to having stereotypes that feed the whims of fanboy/girl-ism. Genre discrimination aside, it’s really about whether the story can be appreciated.
On the other hand, it’s not to say that having preferences is a bad thing, it’s just how much faith you put in your preferences. Be you a fanboy or just a curious passerby there’s always the possibility you can like a “badly made” show and still enjoy the bits and pieces that appeal to your tastes.
July 17, 2006 at 5:23 am
…I think I love you. XP
As a former Bleach fan, albeit a female one– and I’m not even sure whether or not I’m an anime fan, altogether– I agree wholeheartedly with this post. Kudos.
July 17, 2006 at 7:18 am
Hmm I’m not certain you can equate maturity with true manliness… not without saying that teh ghey and female community lack maturity.
And if we’re to say that they have their own womanliness or homoeroticliness, we may as well just nix the idea of true manliness = maturity, period.
So you can’t brag about being a manly man of mannest living in Manlyville. Not such a big deal.
July 17, 2006 at 8:04 am
I think I get your point. Besides, I’m not bragging about being a manly man. Being thin and lanky and not interested in most forms of sport and a geek isn’t really a manly man. 🙂
July 17, 2006 at 8:13 am
Its kind of sad how people do that. I myself watch all these crazy things even if its shoujo. I actually think the whole Shoujo and Shounen genre are jokes, but then again who knows. I really don’t see any problem in watching something aim towards girls, hell it might even be better than Shounen anime with tons of action and deaths and all. Good point for pointing that out =D
July 17, 2006 at 12:32 pm
North American fans are such…pussies for fearing things outside of their predefined notions of sexuality.
Consider KimiNozo *cough* “Rumbling Hearts”. It is a erogame convert, meaning it is an hentai (aka porn) game brought to anime form. Now there is a show that brings emo level to the highest the world has ever seen, but it is still ultimately an “all guys” show! Despite its target (and real) audience, the contant would probably be consider “girly” in this context. It is obvious the asian guys think in a different way….
Lets not get into guys that watches Marmite and reads CCS doujin….
There is no man in ‘otaku’…let the guys watch whatever they want. (including pretty cure!) Gay? Gay is happiness of not needing to conform to stupid standards of emotion stunnedness.
If there is anything that anime teaches, it is that it doesn’t matter if you look like a girl as long as you can kick ass. (and you get 3x the girls if you do that too!)
July 17, 2006 at 3:35 pm
I am not as avid a fan as many of you seem here; I have no idea what these different terms mean. I used to watch Inuyasha mostly…I lacked the resources to get other channels that may have had anime, and I cannot afford buying or renting all these other dvds.
July 17, 2006 at 7:57 pm
Odd how genre’s are described by demographics instead of actual content.
I find myself watching mostly “seinen” stuff, as romance is a bridge I don’t want to cross (I’m afraid I’ll get hopelessly addicted to it) quite yet, but I’m not particularly closed off to it. *haha*
As for Manlyness/womanlyness/homoeroticness, thats one evolutionary stage we’ve yet to cross. (and really need to.
July 17, 2006 at 11:00 pm
The whole thing about masculinity and femininity just went over my head at some point. Why do we have to be restricted by labels that say, “for boys only” or “for girls only”? Why can’t we just enjoy what we like?
When I first started watching anime, (my first actual subtitled anime was GateKeepers when I was 10), I tended to lean towards the shoujo stuff (CCS, etc.), seeing as I was a pre-teen girl. But as I got older, I realized that I liked a lot of the philosophical seinen stuff like Haibane Renmei, Mushishi and Kino no Tabi.
Actually, I really enjoyed Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuuutsu. As a plus, animation quality and music was top-notch, along with the seiyuu work. Although I know I’m definitely not their target audience, what’s wrong with me liking it?
For the past half year I’ve gotten more into shounen series. Not because of the bishounen, mind you, but because of the adventure/action stories you won’t find in shoujo. Angsty romance tires me after a while, so I turn to shounen at those times. For instance, if you didn’t read/watch shounen, you’d miss out on a bunch of good titles: FMA, Death Note, Hikaru no Go, Bleach, Naruto, Eureka seveN, etc.
When it comes to josei, just how many josei anime titles are there? I can only think of one, and that’d be Honey & Clover. (I think Paradise Kiss might be josei since it has some mature context, but the manga seemed more shoujo to me…)
For the guys who refuse to touch anything remotely shoujo or romance-related, they’ll be missing out. Because if you’re a sensitive straight guy who likes shoujo, you can vouch that lots of female anime fans will be all over you, as opposed to if you were an ero-game fanatic.
~ Noodlehead
July 18, 2006 at 1:53 pm
I really like your blog. I started reading it for your comments on Ergo Proxy because you actually discuss it in an intelligent manner instead of fanboying-out over Real like so many others do.
Reading what you’ve written here reminds me that sometimes even viewing anime takes real maturity to gain understanding behind the stories of these shows and can’t be just passed off as for one gender or another. I mean we all have preferences, but our preferences should not dictate what is or isn’t good for others.
Personally, I’m often teased by my friends for reading Bleach manga, which I believe has something more to it that the anime doesn’t express–a maturity and humanity beneath the shounen attire it wears. When I try to explain that, it usually falls on deaf ears. You just can’t win some people over, you can either join them or be true to yourself.
You seem the type who’s true to themselves, and I think that will shine through to some while others will just miss it. So I guess that’s why it’s interesting to read you’re blog as opposed to so many others.
July 18, 2006 at 5:35 pm
@MugORamen
Thank you for that warm comment of yours. It’s with comments like yours that help me get through bad days like today, and I’m pretty thankful I read it at this time. This also helps me think more about what I post and of course update (hopefully intelligently) about stuff in the world of anime. I am true to myself for the most part, sometimes with perverse effects (like failing an exam), but I do fanboy – for example, I do it with Honey and Clover, but I try to put at least some intelligence into my posts. I really appreciate you appreciating my blog, and I hope you could spread the word to your friends. A good discussion is what I always welcome. 🙂
July 18, 2006 at 7:16 pm
[…] Let me be honest: I think that every time I watch Honey and Clover, I lose my manliness yet develop my maturity. I throw a little manliness out the window every single episode every single time I watch a little bit of it, but I also develop a little more maturity. You could read the discussion about how anime genres sometimes hinder or stifle a holistic appreciation of anime here; it’s not that I’m whoring another blog post of mine, but I really value the comments of the different posters there. I throw a little bit of manliness out the window every time I watch Honey and Clover, because for the most part in dramatic episodes I can’t help but cry. It’s perhaps among one of the reasons why I’ve developed an apathy to all tedious school life, because I’ve learned to look and value life more within the mirror of Honey and Clover. From this anime I’ve also learned to value friendship, perhaps helping me to develop more control with it (although I’m still having a hard time) – and since I had and have been a romantic for quite some time, I love the realism in this anime, and it is shown again in this episode. I also can’t feel bad because my problem is only about school. It’s not about life or how I deal with it, but these people have real problems – problems of the heart, problems of the soul, problems of survival – everything bittersweet about humanity is mirrored by Honey and Clover. There isn’t anything platonic or bishounen-fare – it’s all about the beauty and sadness of reality. […]
July 20, 2006 at 11:15 am
Speaking of MANLY-NESS !
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Here’s something I believe you might be able to appreciate.
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“The Top 11 Manliest Men! Perfect Phenotypes of the Y Chromosome”
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http://www.riuva.com/?p=209
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Not just a list, but supporting explanations and analysis/discussion.
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I have a few of my own nominees. The project has been on a backlog for quite some time, but I’m planning to write up something based on tj_han’s post.
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I’m going to emphasize agreement with Hananakajima ‘Sexy Commando’, maybe kenshiro (not just because of his ‘manliness’), and most defiantly ‘Salaryman Kintaro’. Maybe Romaiya-sempai (aka ham-senpai) but that’s not as worthy as Kintaro and other candidates.
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If you haven’t seen this already, then I hope you find it entertaining.
July 22, 2006 at 4:03 am
I agree well besides the whole Honey & Clover being better than Bleach. But watching shoujo titles does not take away anything from your masculinity. Just like me loving shounen anime does not take away my femininity. (actually most people think I’m super girly. Probably am except for my love of fighting , swords, war, violence ect.) And where it is manly to watch hentei I personally am way more attracted to a guy willing or open to watch shoujo. Kudos for my brother who (is no longer really an anime fan but always loved mecha) will watch my kdramas occasionally with me.
August 10, 2006 at 7:10 am
Shoujo is not a genre, there are action, sci-fi, horror shoujo mangas/anime.
It’s not rare at all that a shounen manga is actually heavily skewed towards females, some are actually made to attract female audiences to a particular manga magazine. (Angelic Layer for example)
The video games adaptation of Prince of Tennis were all made for a female audience (there is even a dating sim) There are male readers who are unhappy with this feminization of shounen manga.
Girls reading shounen manga/watching shounen anime is not rare or weird in Japan, the reverse is rare though (Otakus are a different case), and thus publishers do not seek male readership for their manga. But this is not an uniquely Japanese phenomenon. It’s considered more OK that a woman would read a sci-fi book than a man would read Harlequin romances, chick lit, or women’s magazines. Because women are considered to be inferior, and to become a real man you should not dabble in such things, but the views are not as negative with women. It’s not the genderized manga (or novels with Harlequin and ‘chick lit’ being very clearly marketed at women only) system that creates sexism, it’s part of it. This explains why most male western readers of shoujo who don’t think they’re weird will not be the last to point and laugh at a guy reading Harlequin romances or magazines for women, and yes, they do have a few male readers. If homegrown stuff like this is gendered, then why should it be expected that Japanese stuff wouldn’t be? Books for children can be enjoyable for adults too, yet they are clearly labelled as being for the former audience, and they of course turn away potential customers. Most manga are not art, but products, and like clothing for example they are strongly gendered because most guys are not interested in reading shoujo manga. Of course this is not innate, but a taught avoidance response to anything female, because most men fear not being considered manly enough.
I doubt you wouldn’t laugh at the sight of a man reading Cosmopolitan, Glamour or a romance novel.
August 10, 2006 at 7:54 am
There is a western misconception about romance mangas and anime, Koi Kaze is for men. It’s the same for all those shows which show a guy surrounded by women which have a lot of T&A.
A shoujo manga is not a manga about love, but manga for girls. And there are alot of horror shoujo manags for example, probably more than for other audiences. Honey & Clover is for young women. The manga is serialized in a magazine for young women called Young You. The anime is aired on TV Tokyo in a block called Noitamina, which shows anime aimed for a young adult female audience that usually doesn’t watch anime.
Apparrently you seem to equate manga for women with huge sparkly eyes and stuff like that, but that’s in manga for little/young girls usually, manga for women feature more more mature and less cutesy art, and of course more realistic stories (university, work, being married, spousal abuse etc.) There are also a lot of comics for women which are just plain pornographic (they appeared in the 80’s)
The shoujoness of a title is not determined by the content because shoujo is not a genre but a marketing target. Japanese people know what each manga is because of where it is sold, because in bookstores, there are separate racks for shoujo and shounen, and it’s obvious from the cover design, and the collection names.
August 10, 2006 at 7:54 am
This is a page talking about this subject:
http://www.matt-thorn.com/shoujo_manga/whatisandisnt.html
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March 14, 2010 at 6:27 pm
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