I could have posted on introducing myself, blah blah blah, but this is an anime blog and I have to talk about anime. Because the anime I'm most emotional and feverish about is Ergo Proxy, I'd rather talk about it on this first post.
To be honest, when I started watching this anime I was absolutely convinced that it was going to be the best anime of 2006. The animation was simply neat; the character designs unique and beautiful, not to mention a hot heroine in a futuristic, post-apocalyptic world is just always ftw in my books. After watching the first episode of the show by virtue of an advanced screening, I was head-over-heels in fanboying for this show: I was totally besotted.
The second episode detracted a little of the love and admiration I had for this series: it *was* only the second episode and there were Speed Grapher moments already. (In case you didn't know, Speed Grapher was a hyped anime that fell flat because its animation and character design was fugly.) Still, I watched on and enjoyed the portentous mood it brought to anime, and everyone always enjoys archetypical actions. The second episode was realistic in the sense that a baby was murdered along with adults. It is most definitely a no-no in most anime series, but it just showed me the show's grit. All was good.
Episodes three and four got back to business. With a thrilling storyline, and once-more normal animation I enjoyed how the main characters acted – as of then, there were still no definite villains. Even now, there still aren't.
Episode five and six were weak episodes. Banking on viewer-response than on content, the creators of Ergo Proxy managed to kill two unimportant characters, and save for the fact that it was the trigger for Vince's journey to his hometown, Mosk, it wasn't really much, both animation-wise and plot-wise.
That's two strikes already. I'm pretty harsh to this series because given the all-star crew it had to make it, the crew could only make those? The producing company was Manglobe, responsible for Samurai Champloo and Rozen Maiden: Traumend. The director was Shukou Murase, of Witch Hunter Robin lore, and the scriptwriter was Dai Sato, also among the scriptwriters of Ghost in the Shell: Stand-Alone Complex. I couldn't see why the animation had to be so ugly despite these people.
But here it comes: episode eight, but more particularly, nine. The viewers discover that Ergo Proxy is Vincent Law by virtue of some transformations that occurred. That's strike three – you DO not do a henshin/sentai transformation in a serious, futuristic, realistic, post-apocalyptic potboiler anime. In fact, henshin is for most mecha anime only. One may argue that mecha anime are also SF anime, but this is supposedly true SF anime: one that portrays the problems of the future ala Zamyatin or ala Orwell. Not ala Power Rangers or Chikyuu Sentai Faibuman! Or Voltes Five at that.
To add to the situation, they have purported or implied that Real will be the heroine of the series. With the many shots of many different sites having her tote a shotgun, fanboys like me assumed her to be the main character, and the one featured in most episodes, just like Motoko was. Instead, her airtime gets taken by Vincent Law, seemingly a shy guy, with eyes almost always closed when in the city, and with a past. We then know that he's Ergo Proxy in the 9th episode and a whole lot of questions are answered with that. Just like 'poof'.
No deeper meaning, no theories on science, just pure, unadulterated henshin scenes and transformations, WITHOUT Real at that, who I've been waiting for since the seventh episode. One could argue that there are still many questions to be answered. I agree, there are. But to answer a major one with an absurd plot twist? With a high-budget? Can't they think of anything more than pulling a rabbit out of their asses?
I simply try laughing things off. Henshin will look funny especially if played to the OP of Voltes Five. If people don't agree with me, so be it. But one has to admit that although good, it probably isn't the best anime of the year, or even near the best.
(Real must come out. It isn't fun having to watch an adventure between a monster and a rabbit. At least PLEASE show some girls. Or just Real.)
May 5, 2006 at 2:27 pm
When I first started watching, I too was blown away by the incredible clean-style in which EP was presented.. It looked so.. Professional, as if it was the next big hit of the year, and something that was gonna be really unforgettable. The first few episodes were great. You say how the Animation style degraded, but I won’t really agree on that; then again, I’m not the kind of guy that really looks for the nitty gritty stuff. Personally, I loved episode 3. Actually only for the OP :p
For me, what matters is the plot. And sadly, as you say, thats where its getting disappointing. I would have expected something more.. Original. Ahwell. More of my opinions to come later..
~Lost
May 5, 2006 at 3:09 pm
I kinda agree with you about ep.8 and 9 to be disappointing. Especially ep.8: I mean, the setting was utterly wrong, compared to the previous episodes. Those “proxies” look more demons from Devilman….and the animation quality drops a lot:too many reused scenes, lots of empty backgrounds. I’m still trying to look at the bottle half-full, anyway: there’s ample space, I think, for redemption of Ergo Proxy. I hope they don’t pull out an absurd ending.
May 6, 2006 at 12:42 pm
Spoilers…
Man, you hit the nail on the head – I have been getting more and more disillusioned with Ergo Proxy as the series has gone on. Episode 1 – brilliant, almost “Blade Runner”-esque in its presentation. It made for a compelling snapshot of a beautiful world. In fact, it almost would have been better if they had just stopped at episode 1. The others have been ridiculously underwhelming for the reasons you’ve stated. The Proxies in episode 1 were hauntingly beautiful, but the Proxy version of Vincent that we see in episode 8 as compared to episode 9 just looks like a maniacal clown.
Also, the pacing of the show is just off, and has been ever since the end of episode 3. Once Vincent left Romdeau, characters have been introduced, shown to be either completely two-dimensional or just plain crazy, and killed without enough time or reason for the viewers to connect with them. Queen died – so what? A lot of people have died who we didn’t care about, nor had any reason to.
I’m waiting to see how they handle the rest of the series, but as of now Ergo Proxy is the greatest disappointment from the most talented group of creators that anime has seen in a long while.
May 7, 2006 at 12:46 am
I’m really thankful you guys agree with me. I’ve been chastised (by one guy, anyway) for being too general with my opinions and failing to disprove his deep psychological insights on Real. Well, this IS my insight. I’m sorry if it hadn’t been too specific to point out certain aspects of the show, but it has become disappointing.
*sigh*
May 7, 2006 at 1:22 am
They’re still to explain what proxies actually are
I think you’re judging it too early, and besides, I still enjoy it.
My philosophy on things like this is, “Keep your expectations low, that way you won’t be disappointed.”
May 7, 2006 at 5:24 am
Thats the problem. Expectations were high, at least i had them, after watching, the trailer. I haven’t seen episode 9, but after watching 8, i must say that is not what it supposed to be. Animation is not that bad, for me its the only thing that rescues, this show, rest is rubbish. Plot????? What plot???? Does this have a plot???? I have no idea whats the main theme of this anime, they change it every episode, confusing viewer. FFS whats this anime about????? There is much talk, but none of it make any sense…. Like when this women in eps 8, comments, the fight of two proxies. Tons of bulshit. If it would mean something i would “feel” something. It would catch my breath, or something. Now im very dissappointed here.
But lets wait, and see, how will things will unravel.
May 7, 2006 at 7:06 am
I think this is an anime you have to give some time to. It’s thoroughly unpredictable. I don’t think they were stupid when they promoted Real a lot, she just has gone into hiding for a while, and I’m sure that around 11 or 12 she’ll be back with some major kick butt thing.
As for Vince transforming into Ergo… it made sense because you had those humans being genetically raised to become the “good, wasteful citizens of Romdeau.” And the Moscow dome fell for some reason related most likely to the Proxies, some experiment that went wrong or something. With the technology of the future (like making Autoraves more like humans, etc), I wouldn’t doubt the capability of this happening.
I still keep my expectations high for this series, and I hope they do more on the philosophic mysteries they are bringing up. Otherwise, I’ll be a little depressed.
May 8, 2006 at 7:00 am
Hmm, since you kind of asked me to post here… but I’m too lazy to come up with something new so I’ll just reuse most of my AnimeSuki post
First off, I haven’t watched past ep 5 (or whichever one it was where Real went out to get Vincent back into the city and her suit got destroyed), and I’m not sure I could call myself an EP fan at this point.
As to why I haven’t continued (although I still might), it’s because by that point it seemed that it was turning into a “same old” SF anime, but without having captured my interest in any of the characters. Without plot or (especially!) character interest it’s hard for me to keep up with a series, especially in an overloaded season such as this one.
I don’t know that I expected the show to be about Real vs about Vincent. I don’t know that I expected it to be about anything in particular, just some not-too-stale SF of decent production quality. (The hype largely passed by me.) The production quality I don’t have too many problems with, but I didn’t necessarily expect this to be the “pretentious show for pretentious people” of the season (although Simoun may still be in competition). I guess that may sound offensive to the fans of EP, but what I mean is shows that manage to cram in enough (frequently obscure) scientific, philosphical, etc. references and ideas to look “very deep”, so that people who are so inclined (like, say, MrX) can in turn show how “deep” and/or “well-informed” they are and talk to death about the “depth” of the show, whether it actually exists or not. (I’m not saying it doesn’t exist.) I guess I’m probably sounding more dismissive than I want to, but if so that’s because sometimes talk like that makes me wonder if I’m somehow missing the “depth” the show, while I don’t feel that it’s really the case. It was like that with Noein as well, at some point it (the show) became mostly mumbo-jumbo with many convenient loopholes, but some people were still raving about how scientific, etc. it all was… But I digress.
Just to be clear, I’m not opposed to speculation and theorizing, and I definitely don’t consider people pretentious just because they like to engage in that. With EP, though, I have to borrow Innuendo’s words above: “If it would mean something i would “feel” something.” Since I feel very little, the talk starts feeling pretentious, too.
And I share your opinion on EP vs GITS:SAC (that you expressed elsewhere). At this point (including what I’ve read of the episodes I haven’t seen) it doesn’t seem likely that EP could even come close to SAC in terms of either depth or entertainment value.
May 8, 2006 at 10:19 pm
You never cease to amaze me, Mr. WTTrinity … or Miss, or whatever.
That was funny … ahahaha … MrX … ahahaha LOL.
May 9, 2006 at 1:51 am
I’m Mr. (if you must).
As for “MrX”… well, there’s no context here in this blog, and I didn’t want to say something silly like “like, say, the guy you called “one guy”", and using the actual nick could bring the fight over here–which I’m guessing you could do without
May 9, 2006 at 5:47 pm
Thanks for your consideration. I don’t want any castigation in a blog filled with opinion.
May 10, 2006 at 2:46 am
Im gonna have to disagree with all of you. I think you dont understand Ergo Proxy. Its not about great art or action sequenses and you cant just compare it with other animes, not EP and not any other anime. Ergo Proxy is about the story which happens to be a very dark one. As for the sole appearance of Vincent Law in episodes 8 and 9 thats because he isn’t one of the main characters of the series but as a matter of fact he is “THE” main character of Ergo Proxy and thats why they call it “Ergo Proxy” not “Real Mayar”. Although i think manglob will not forget Real as she also happens to be one of the main characters of the anime.
Long story short, Ergo Proxy is the best anime of the season and no other anime can take it down from that spot not Tokko and not even Black Lagoon.
May 10, 2006 at 2:46 am
I don’t think we’ve really had a lot of questions answered by the reveal that Vincent transforms into Ergo Proxy. We still have no idea HOW or WHY that happens; we presume it’s got something to do with the Amrita cells, but since we’ve only seen Kazukisu and Vincent in their un-Proxied states we’ve got nothing to go on as yet.
As you and “MrX” rehashed over and over, it essentially comes down to expectations; Ergo Proxy is not what you expected it to be, and that’s fair enough. While you find that disappointing, I certainly don’t; Vincent has proved to be far more interesting than I first thought he would be, and the show has posed several questions that I want answered as much as I want to see Real back in the storyline; I find Raul and Daedalus especially interesting, but there’s also the mystery of what happened in Moscow and a whole host of Proxy-related questions I want answered (like their motives, for one; why was Monad hunting Real, and what is the point of them even existing? Amrita cells must have come from somewhere…) Plus Pino is genuinely cute, something I never expected to see from this show!
Maybe it’s the fact that I don’t really care for hard-boiled science fiction thrillers; Blade Runner is visually impressive and contains some interesting issues but is, in itself, a rather boring film in my opinion, and I have never warmed up to the Ghost in the Shell franchise. Ergo Proxy is much stronger in that it weaves together multiple plot threads effectively (although not so much in the recent episodes due to their focus on Vincent) whilst posing some interesting philosophical questions that don’t just relate to topics in the philosophy of mind but also to general ethics and metaphysical questions about personal identity; certainly plenty of deep things to talk about there, even if you do think the transformation is hokey (which, as I’ve said before, I don’t).
It’s quite clear that your expectations regarding Real are your main issue with the series; she’s been gone for two episodes and you’re making out like it’s the end of the world! Two episodes of a 23 episode series are not that drastic, especially as episodes 1 and 7 was almost entirely focused on her story. I realise that she’s what you want to see in the show, but Ergo Proxy has plenty of other merits in my opinion that are worth looking at rather than focusing exclusively on Real’s character; yes, she’s a great female lead, but she’s not the be-all and end-all, and her absence doesn’t really diminish the show in the long run. Of course, if she is genuinely dead and doesn’t appear in the rest of the series I’ll be disappointed, but that’s quite clearly not going to happen as she’s the joint lead character of the show; I know, you want her to be the main one, but that’s just not the way the show has turned out, and it doesn’t make the show bad, just different.
With regards to the animation, I’m not sure what to think really. I don’t think the animation has really dropped in quality, I just think it’s become a bit more stylised; while things aren’t as smooth as they are in the first episode, smoothness isn’t everything (witness Madlax for that; the in-betweening work is incredible, but it doesn’t alter the static, unoriginal look that many Bee Train shows exhibit) and the somewhat angular, jerky look of the show suits it immensely. Furthermore, it pulls out the money shots on a regular basis; witness any of the fight scenes or the Plugvent scene in episode 3 for evidence of quality that matches the first episode, in my opinion. First episodes of TV shows are always bad judges for animation quality as they always plow budget into them to hook viewers; aside from perhaps Bones I can’t think of any studio that maintains animation quality from the beginning. I can see why you might be disappointed with Ergo Proxy’s animation, but personally I have absolutely no problems with it and consider it easily above average in terms of storyboarding, direction and keyframe animation compared to most shows this season; sure, the Bones shows like Jyu Oh Sei and Ouran may have better animation, but Ouran in particular makes clever use of limited or repeated animation done in a stylish way and neither is quite as artistically “lofty” as Ergo tends to be.
I’m not setting out to dash your opinion to pieces, nor am I trying to say that Ergo Proxy is the perfect anime series to which all others should aspire; it’s clearly not, it has problems and quirks like any other show (its somewhat derivative nature, parts of the Commune arc being poorly paced (although overall I still enjoyed those episodes), occasional animation problems). It’s also very easy to poke fun at because it’s so po-faced about everything, hence why I do so quite frequently; nevertheless, I’m really enjoying the show and have absolutely no qualms about saying so. I can’t completely demolish your opinion because, after all, it’s just an opinion, and we’re all allowed those. However, in return it’s best to understand that some people see the things you think are irredeemable flaws in the show and either feel neutral about them or think they’re relatively positive points of the show, and we’re never all going to agree; reducing this into pointless bickering and name-calling is cheap and petty.
May 10, 2006 at 7:33 am
Cheap and petty, you may call it … but I didn’t start it, he did. ‘MrX’ is a name-call now?
It isn’t that his insights are bad; if you think I am thinking like this, you are mistaken. I, for one, dislike his elitist and know-it-all character; I dislike his inability to admit his mistakes, and I dislike his arrogance. His insights are very incisive, and I’m pretty sure he has spent time researching and rewatching EP. Being an asshole, however, makes it different. For one, he can’t even spell ‘agree’ right a lot of times, and he has the gall to castigate me for NOT knowing literature … which I got an A on. (Yeah, who cares, right? Well, I do. I don’t like people insulting me for things I’m proficient on, and I certainly don’t like arrogant people who can’t admit they _were_ wrong.)
I totally understand your side on these things, and I hope I didn’t impose them on you. When I write my posts, I certainly think on how to avoid shoving my opinion up others’ asses, which is why I constantly and consistently use IMO, personally think, IMHO, etc. You may have noticed that, not only on my Ergo Proxy posts, but on my other posts as well.
Although I admit I am a Real fanboy, if I truly was only watching the show for the sake of Real, I’d have stopped at 4 or 5 or 6 … that was already too little airtime for Real. What I dislike about the creators is that they had the balls to lie or misdirect the common viewer to net them into watching EP. (Yeah, it’s marketing, but doing it underhandedly isn’t going to please me in the least.) They featured Real in Newtype, in most of the posters, and in most part of the trailers. I myself would like to be obfuscated in ’smart’ shows like this, however, I don’t want the general ambience of the show to misdirect me, because like now, I really feel cheated. If they would have featured Vincent, they should have shown Vincent and featured him. That way I could expect a true SF series, not the philosophical and psychological girl-with-gun stuff I’ve had with Motoko (and better yet at that, IMO). They mistakenly displaced my expectations, and so with others, that we feel (I think, anyway) that they’ve cheated us. That’s my take on it.
Arguably, Ergo Proxy is dystopian in genre; and this is what irks me so much of Vincent’s transformation. Past media, either with books or film, avoid quasi-magical transformations in this genre. There were no transformations with Zamyatin; there were no transformations with Orwell; I think there were no transformations with Blade Runner. Using transformation in this genre to propel the plot is just so far-fetched to me, thus, very difficult to believe in except to laugh at.
I hope I clarified some of my points and rebutted some points you were pointing out.
May 10, 2006 at 9:26 pm
You may not have started it but you seem intent on continuing it at every opportunity, which to me is cheap and petty. Just get over it already. I don’t get the need for the little stabs at his posts, spelling mistakes etc.. It just all seems rather childish. He seems to have moved on, whereas you are intent on the little snipes and whatnot.
They(referring to his posts) certainly make a nice change from some of your posts which you seem to love repeating over and over again and often make in threads that are unrelated to EP via some really tenuous links. Still you do IMO post some good shit, far better than stuff I could come up with anyway, I just wish you’d get back to that.
May 10, 2006 at 9:52 pm
Well, I read this post before answering the one after it. I didn’t answer it before because I think you have a right to your opinion. Simply, to me it doesn’t matter if Ergo Proxy breaks a hole in its genre. I think it works well playing within the confines of a dystopian SF, with a few staples of the genre (one of the most prevalent being the AI vs. humanity thread we see in characters like Pino). That is, I don’t think a story has to defy its genre to be good. It can be good because it tells its story well, and Ergo Proxy is doing just that to me. Admittedly, I don’t like defining stories within genres in general (see cross-genre note below). I find it nice to just watch it take its own shape.
Plotwise, I like that the focus is building a story through character development. I like that the morals of this world are a bit hazy, and that the characters themselves aren’t always sure of what’s right or wrong. This is clearly not a nice place to live. People die at an alarming rate. I think that’s fine. Death isn’t supposed to be something fair or always easily explained. But based on what the story’s doing, I don’t think the show is killing people unecessarily.
EP has actually done some good things with its storytelling. The characters are developing at a good pace, even within their genre’s “mold”, human or otherwise. Their facets are interesting, if not always surprising, but they’re not so hackneyed we can tell exactly what they’re going to do next all the time (or there wouldn’t be so many debates and theories in the first place.)
Personally, I don’t think the plot is whether Vincent is a Proxy (was never much of a secret), whether Vincent and Real will like each other (couldn’t have been more obvious), whether Real will survive (all that marketing won’t go to waste) or whether Pino will develop a human heart (her name has always hit me as short for Pinnochio), or any of those things we can see right before us. They’re just part of the journey.
I also don’t think Vince’s Proxy transformation was meant to be a surprise, not to the viewers anyway. It’s the worst kept secret in the whole series, seeing as how they only hint that Vince is the Proxy in every OP sequence since ep 3. The characters are taking their own time to discover that, and this seems in line with where they are in the story.
As for transformation sequences in SF, I don’t think it’s unwarranted. It’s also not as unusual as one might think. Gilgamesh, a not too dissimilar series, had transformation sequences. Blood+, an ongoing series, has transformations. If nothing else, by genre, EP strikes me as a dark SF/F cross (there’s SF, but the Proxies are bordering on mysticism). Judging EP on its own, the transformation sequences don’t strike me as unnatural given their circumstances. They’re not unexpected or without purpose in terms of the storyline, and that’s my criteria for whether or not they’re appropriate.
Other aspects of the plot, like the philosophical leanings and name-dropping, do work for me. At least, I think EP is making some observations about the society/world it’s building (some of them strike me as snarks about our world too), and I do think that will tie in with the plot in a big way. This is also the big picture I’m focusing on. If it takes it slowly, even 15 eps to hit The Plot, that’s fine to me. (WHR took 15 eps and took out the male lead for nearly 10 of the next eps — back when it was running, I remember how people were complaining “there was no plot” till it fell on their heads; so I think it’s a stylistic element of the director at work — might be up to viewers’ personal taste.)
PS: I don’t feel cheated because Real isn’t around at the moment. I like her, as I do many of the characters (some of the more obscure ones I want to see more of). The focus of the story at this point naturally feels like it should be with Vincent. (I also think the focus of the plot has also been Pino in an indirect way — I updated my Halfway Point notes back at my LJ with a word on that.) I know Real will be back. It’s good to not always know how. And, the title of this show is, “Ergo Proxy.”
May 13, 2006 at 1:50 am
Thanks for stopping the use of “MrX” in your sig. Now I won’t have to sue you for trademark violation. (And it was about time otherwise, too
)
I have to agree with your comment at AS on some of these upcoming eps not sounding as something to loo forward to based on those briefs. At least speaking Realistically
, there doesn’t seem to be much on offer — if the synopses aren’t misleading like they sometimes are.
I think in some ways I went overboard with my comments about the show, and let a personal annoyance color my statements too much. I’m still reasonably interested in what they’re going to do with the plot eventually. However, since I haven’t developed a significant emotional connection to any of the characters (Real and perhaps also Daedalus coming close, but not close enough), I find that it’s easier for me to just read up on EP in blogs and at AS than watch it.
I wonder if anyone else has experienced the same thing, that you’re a lot more interested in EP on the intellectual level than emotionally. Beign curious rather than caring. Wanting to know how they (the makers) handle things more than wanting to watch it take place…
May 13, 2006 at 1:54 am
Uh, make that “to loo[b]k[/b] forward to based on those briefs”… and “Bei[b]ng[/b] curious”.
May 14, 2006 at 9:29 pm
Well I for one find the show to be visually stunning and intellectually stimulating. I have never been the one to get expectations about plot lines as I believe the writer’s will tell us when they want us to know. It is after all a story, a visual story albeit but a story nonetheless. I don’t complain at Chapter 8 when something happens I don’t understand I wait until I’ve read the entire story, the answer may be in Chapter 21 and as in most books there are chapters that are slow or seemingly meaningless until you take the work as a whole.
As for me “Patience is a virtue”, I’ll post my final opinions after the final show.